| Author | Message | ||
     Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1501 Registered: 5-2001 |
"They even go as far as to make it clear the celebration of Christmas is one to honor as part of the fund raising effort. " Man, Oh Manischewitz - they made it clear that Christmas celebration is NOT a desired part of any fundraising effort. Sure, the temple could make a buck - but it isn't in keeping with it's values and mission. The decision is to be admired. | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 1581 Registered: 6-2002 |
"They even go as far as to make it clear the celebration of Christmas is one to honor as part of the fund raising effort." "As a Jew I am outraged at such behaivor. Frankly I'm more outraged by those who defend such attitudes as well." Straw: What the hell are you talking about? What is the basis of your saying that they honored Christmas as part of their fundraising? And "as a Jew" you think it is OK to celebrate Christmas in a synagogue? You know, I thought this whole "controversey" was absurd, but now I am getting pissed! Bringing symbols of Christmas into a synagogue is a desecration. Let's talk about the "1000 pound gorilla in the room". Christanity and Judaism are different religions and not in the same sense that, let us say, Hinduism and Islam are. Christianity arose from Judaism and they are contradictory in essential ways. Judaism says "The Lord is One". Christianity is based on the Trinity. An essential element of Jewish belief is the comimg of the Messiah. Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus is not just irrelevant to Judaism, the Christian concept of Jesus is contradictory to Judaism. And Judaism is contradictory to Christianity. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Therefore any symbol of Christmas in a synagogue is an anathema. There is a well thought of pre-school at Prospect Presbyterian Church. People of all faiths are welcome to send their children there, and in fact do so. Suppose there are Hindu families sending their kids there. Would it be appropriate to display icons of Hindu dieties in that Christian Church? | ||
| Dave Moderator Username: Dave Post Number: 4954 Registered: 4-1998  |
Ganesha would be cool. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 587 Registered: 5-2004  |
This whole thread and the religious songs in school threads remind me of an joke email that went around the Internet years and years ago, before ther was a web... Dear John, As you know, We've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in our schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the supreme court and get the old devil-inspired ruling reversed. Naturally, we were all excited by the school board action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate. After the first day of school, I asked him "how did the prayer time go?" "Fine. "Did many kids go out into the hallway?" "Two. "Excellent. How did you like your teachers prayer?" "It was different, dad. Real different from the way you pray." "Oh? Like how?" "She said, 'Hail Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners...'" The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away. At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged, closed his eyes, raised his hand palms up in the air and began to hum. You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning. "Look," I said. 'I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable If you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion. That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school. "I don't think you're going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad." "Out with it." "She kept calling O Great Buddha..." The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. "Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher who prays in Jesus' name!" "What about Bertha Smith?" "Excellent." I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang. "Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car. "Okay." "Okay what?" "Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus' name, Amen just like you." I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place." "She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy. I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?" "Lets see..." he mused for a moment. "And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God." We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said reaching for the door handle. Then paused. I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?" "Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18." "Nephi what?" "Nephi," he said. "It's in the Book of Mormon. The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much. Give my love to Sandi and the boys. Your buddy, Juan CALVARY BAPTIST CHURCH | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4237 Registered: 10-2001 |
this isn't about a temple celebrating Christmas. This is about a Temple/school gladly taking money from non-Jews for profit sake, but when push comes to shove telling the non-jews to piss off. The temple or in this case the school should either tells the non-Jews you're welcome or you're not welcome. This mixed message b.s is for the birds. Mamabear should demend a refund and send her kid elsewhere. If I were a non-jew sending my kid there I would make others plans quickly as well. The temple wants 100% Jewish only material fine, just don't pitch the school as being anything other then that when it's time to fill the classrooms and the wallets. School is damn greedy.(and they hire unqualified teachers as well) | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1379 Registered: 6-2003  |
A good pre-school should make some space for all of the religions of the children that attend it. If the pre-school is associated with a religious institution but advertises its services to families with other beliefs, then a balance has to be struck between the practices of the institution and those of the participating families. It would be hypocritical for the school to accept their money on any other basis. A purely religious pre-school (where profession of the faith is required for admission) can of course do what it likes, subject to the general rules imposed by the secular society that it belongs to. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 588 Registered: 5-2004 |
Straw, I'm surprised at you. I'd think you'd want to simply let the free market system take care of this. If the school does not cater to the whims of people of other religions, and that is important to those families, then they will leave the school, and the school will eventually lose students. If that is enough to financially harm the school, they will either change their policy, or decide that their religion is more important than the financial benefit of having non-Jewish students in it. If my kids went to a school at a church, no matter what they advertised, I would not expect them to in any way endorse my religion. I'm rather amazed that anyone would expect a religion institution, unless they explicitly say that they treat all religions the same, to give any time or effort toward another religion. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 2308 Registered: 5-2001  |
Straw: Maybe you should try sticking to the "All Politics" thread, where your twisted outlook is more appreciated. But anyhow: Would you, "as a Jew", feel more comfortable establishing pre-school boundaries around your Jewish kids, thereby precluding their coming in regular normalized group contact with those not of your faith? Well, there are plenty of Conservative and Orthodox synagogues that'll accommodate you, and allow you to be comfortable in knowing that the segregation you desire will be enforced. STSI is a different place, and those of us who are members like it that way. If the spritual leadership had polled the congregation, asking, "Should we sell Christmas-related items in deference to those non-Jewish members of the Pre-School?", I'm certain that the majority answer would be "No". But they did not. The decision was, and should have been, the Rabbi's to make. Perhaps the issue simply needed to be brought to his attention sooner, but as it is, the ruling is appropriate. You may carp all you wish, Straw, but your opinions are every bit as much in the minority in our Jewish community as they are in the "All Politics" Section. -s. BTW: Where do you get off making that unsubstantiated "unqualified" crack? You're a sad little person. I'm glad I don't know you. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2010 Registered: 3-2003 |
Does Strawberry seriously think that if 30% of Our Lady of Sorrows students were Jewish (I've heard OLS does accept non-Catholic paying customers, BTW) then the church should be expected to sell "Jesus was a nice Jewish boy/No wonder his mother thought he was G-d" greeting cards at its holiday fundraisers? I almost can't believe the obtuseness of the pro-Mammabear contingent here. How comforting that it is microscopically small. | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4238 Registered: 10-2001 |
FOR ALL THOSE NON JEWS SENDING YOUR KIDS TO THIS SCHOOL, HERE IS THE THOUGHTS OF ONE OF ITS TEACHERS. "So what do I mean by welcoming and including (other religions)? We acknowledged other cultures, and did not hush the children if they mentioned how they celebrate at home. If Josh said he was going on a plane to visit his Grandma for Christmas, we said "How exciting! Have you ever been on a big plane before?", not "Thank you, but we don't talk about Christmas here" holy ignorance. Josh: : "I got a toy robot for Christmas teacher." Teacher: "That's nice, does the robot make fart noises like I do when I try and talk." Josh: "Santa gave it to me." Teacher: "GO THE THE PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE NOW!" yes sir, take the money and take the innocence. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 2311 Registered: 5-2001 |
Well that certainly elevated the level of discourse... I say stick a fork in this thread. It's done. | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm glad I gave all of you something to post about over the weekend! It's obvious most of you can not understand the situation. You are not there, you do not hear all the conversations, you do not feel all the undertones. I only wish I could communicate better, mention every meeting, reference every conversation on the topic so you would understand where I am coming from. Joan- there are many instances of this behavior. Most recently were the two things I mentioned - a book sale and a vendor night, where Chrsitmas items were removed. We also had a significant increase in tuition for non-temple members. Coincidence? I think not. Yes, we do think of TSTI as our "neighborhood temple" whether we are Jewish or not, although I can tell you that the temple and the Preschool are two very different entities and there inlies your problem. The Preschool Board feels one way and the temple feels another way. We have met with both sides and I can just see the lines being drawn in the sand. Because we disagree with the temple as a Board, are we just supposed to forget how we feel as a preschool? Should we change the preschool's identity because our diversity makes some of the temple members uneasy? All the parents I know decided to send their kids there because it was a nurturing multi-cultural atmosphere with a wonderful curriculum. We also love Carol, the Director. Yes, it was labelled a "Jewish" school, but Like I said, that's not what we were all sold when we toured, went to parent meetings, etc. We were told we were welcome. We saw the stats and saw diversity. (No matter what you label anything, I would never send my child to a school that was 100% ANYTHING.) It's sad, but in the end, we were all duped. I understand the opposing argument. Like I said, I do not mean to ruin anything for any Temple members that find Christmas items "offensive". I understand the temple is a safe-haven for its congregation. But this is not a Christianity/Judaism issue - forget the labels - look at the facts. If the Temple wants to have a 100% Jewish Preschool, then they should have the you-know-whats to come out and say it. I would respect that decision, but this back-handed "we don't really want you there " BS is just lame. This is not a temper tantrum about me and some posse I am trying to rally against the temple. I am not having an indentity crisis. Quite frankly, I am shocked that some of you are having such a hard time seeing my point. Over and out...I'm done on this topic. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 3645 Registered: 5-2001  |
Oy vay! | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1707 Registered: 2-2001 |
Don't let the screen door slam. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 329 Registered: 3-2002 |
Yeah, this thread is getting old...mammabear is neither convinced nor convincing, so we probably can all find better things to do. However, mammabear and Soda - quit making uninformed assertions about Oheb Shalom/ conservative synagogues. Clearly you don't know them very well. For anyone who is confused, Oheb does welcome non-Jewish students in its preschool (but never has Christmas materials in its booksale ;-) ). We don't have as high a percentage of non-Jews, or non-members, in the preschool as TSTI, perhaps because we have a smaller school, with fewer spaces available. No, we don't do programming for non-Jewish holidays (whether Christmas, Valentine's day, or Halloween), but neither do we expect children not to mention the traditions of their homes. | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2001 |
Susan- I am more informed than you'll ever know about Oheb and what goes on there. Oheb has a lower number of non-Jews because the temple is conservative and, right or wrong, does not have the reputation of being as inclusive as TSTI, its Reform neighbor. Oheb represents itself as a very Jewish-oriented preschool. They have heavy membership recruiting, etc. People who choose to go to Oheb preschool do so specifially for the Jewish education/Jewsih experience, not becasue they desir to send their children to a multicultural neighborhood school. Big difference. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1505 Registered: 5-2001 |
TSTI does not have heavy membership recruiting because it is fortunate enough to have a huge and stable membership (last I heard it was over 900 families). Many families tend to make the plunge of joining the temple once their children are in public school and they are no longer juggling preschool tuition. Synagogue membership is expensive - close to $2000/year, and many young families defer the commitment until they are ready to enroll their children in religious school. I can understand why the school/synagogue connection is not important to a non-Jewish parent who chooses the school for all the reasons a parent makes such a decision. But that doesn't give you the right to suggest that the connection should be severed ("the temple and the preschool are two very different entities, ... and a line has been drawn in the sand...") The school's diversity doesn't make temple members uncomfortable. Actually, in all my years associated with the temple (as a parent, a member and a teacher)I have never heard as many references to demographics and percentages as I have heard from Mamabear in these last two weeks. Pretty disappointing. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 4488 Registered: 5-2001  |
"Bringing symbols of Christmas into a synagogue is a desecration." I am genuinely sorry to quote you anon, but this is the kind of statement that makes me detest religion and all the segregation and bias that goes with it. My parents sent me to OLS for eight years, and we were taught to respect the jewish religion as an ancient, revered and wise faith, we visited temple, and NEVER were we taught that any jewish ideas and symbolisms were a desecretion or threat to the catholic faith. I consider myself lucky for this and I wish others could of had this. Anyway, I still feel this school had every right not to sell christmas stuff. There's too much of it out in the real world for people who don't celebrate it as it is. | ||
| ashear Supporter Username: Ashear Post Number: 1636 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mem - I kinda agree, and kinda don't. For the stuff described here, Santa type stuff, I think desecration is a bit strong. On the other hand if we were talking about say, an image of Christ, that seems to me to be a graven image and bringing that into a synagogue could be described as desecration without meaning that you disrespect Christianity. Such in image is simply incompatible with Jewish belief and practice. (Even an image of a saint, which santa technically kinda, sorta is, could be seen this way, so its not totally unreasonable.) (Obviously Mamabear is off the wall. If I walked into my Synagogue and saw Christmas books for sale my first call would be the Rabbi and my second would be the President of the Congregation to get the stuff out of there. Please. It’s a Synagogue.) | ||
| Bobkat Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7177 Registered: 5-2001 |
A couple of points: First, most Christians view Santa Claus as a secular figure. Heck, Santa is a big marketing icon in the far east in countries such as Japan which is certainly not a Christian country. From the postings here most Jews don't and some have actually been hurt by the story of Santa bringing toys only to good little boys and girls. Second, as silly as it sounds given the amount of anti-Semetism in the world, it is much easier for Christians to be accepting of Judiasm than the reverse, because Christianity is based on Judiasm. Third, on a less philosophical level, it appears that STSI allowed sales of the wrapping paper, etc. in the past (as strange as that may seem), but changed their view this year. I hope and pray that this isn't another sign of the hardening fronts in the "culture wars". |
