| Author | Message | ||
     Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1435 Registered: 6-2003  |
The war is 90% about oil and 10% about right-wing hysteria (or thereabouts). Belief in the Bush Administration's propaganda is negligible outside the U.S. - and it's not convincing to many Americans either. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 3188 Registered: 8-2003 |
An empty fall-back position | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 494 Registered: 3-2004 |
I don't like making comments ad hominem or ad feminam, but I enjoyed reading cjc's opinions/positions stated above: in Feb 21's posting at 2:56, about the war in Iraq: "...some mistakes in its execution..." Disingenuous to say the least, and a bit like saying that Torquemada might have been somewhat over-zealous in carrying out the Inquisition. And today, at 8:29 PM, (and I hope that I am not taking the comment out of context) about "the Soviet Union for the democracy they are working with today..." First, I believe that the Soviet Union as an entity died a few years ago, and we are now dealing with a hydra called Russia. Given what has been going on in Russia under Vladimir Putin, and the fact that many Russians and foreigners in Moscow, St Petersburg, and other larger cities fear for their lives and are often prey to hoodlumism, hooliganism, and violent crime on a frontier-town scale, I'm not sure that Russians and objective outsiders would say that the benefits of democracy have taken hold there. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 2107 Registered: 5-2001  |
Keep at it, Innisowen, yer doin' fine. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5635 Registered: 1-2003  |
That's not an ad hominem attack. It's just saying you don't agree, which is fair play. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2927 Registered: 12-2001  |
I heard Bush on NPR yesterday. He was talking about "negotiating with the moolahs of Iran to stop their nuclear weapons development". I am guessing he was refering to the mullahs, but the accent was excellent. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 496 Registered: 3-2004 |
Maybe the "mullahs" now have lots of "moolah" thanks to contributions from unknown sources to support their "newkyular" weapons development. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 4363 Registered: 10-1999  |
High oil prices give the mullahs all the "moolah" they need, unfortunately. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 3192 Registered: 8-2003 |
Innisowen -- how is it disingenuous to allow that mistakes were made in the prosecution of the Iraq War? I don't follow you. Your Inquisition model presupposes that I was in favor of the Inquisition aside from some of the cruelty that was involved. Please explain. I apologize for using "Soviet Union" instead of modern day "Russia." My mistake. And while I will grant you that rule of law and security aren't at levels they should be in Russia, democracy has brought untold relative wealth and opportunity to Russia that Communism never could. Is political persecution as widespread as it used to be? Is there any opposition to Putin? You sound like the Amnesty Int'l report that said women in Iraq were no better off now than under Saddam Hussein. That report said rape and domestic violence are up, which surely outweigh widespread religous and political persecution, not to mention garden variety genocide. Who's disingenuous now? | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1438 Registered: 6-2003 |
Maybe it's 80% about oil, 10% about right-wing hysteria, 10% about distracting the American people from serious domestic issues and 10% about money-making opportunities for Halliburton and various defense contractors. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 514 Registered: 3-2004 |
CJC--- interesting points. I would respectfully submit that the Soviet power infrastructure, which wielded significant influence and managed to "feather its own nest" under communism is basically the power structure that has been making all the money ( a lot of it illegal) since the Soviet Union dissolved. Political persecution has been replaced by gangsterism and violence, and I'm not sure what would happen to the "man on the street" who walked around the Kremlin with a sandwich board sign protesting Putin. I grant that you seem to know more about these situations than I do, so I defer to you. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 516 Registered: 3-2004 |
CJC: As to being "disingenuous," I was trying with my comparison (not too well, it seems) to use understatement. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 3193 Registered: 8-2003 |
Early stages of capitalism have seen robber barons, extortion and coersion, and abominable labor practises. It certainly happened in the US, and you're seeing some societal chafing at the early runaway capitalism in China if you really prowl news sources. Justice systems, lawmaking and workers' organizations have to catch up with that. You heard right....cjc is saying that regulation and unions have to play their necessary role in a free society. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 520 Registered: 3-2004 |
OK, isn't that nice. Ironically, it would seem that our own society is still in early stage capitalism and "robber baronism" is happening here on an uncomfortably large scale. Speaking as a capitalist, I have no truck for the likes of the Rigas's, Dick Scrushy, Dennis Kozlowski, Ken Lay, and list of others as long as my arm that I can name, going back only to 1985 and representing a cross-section of industries. "Some societal chafing at...early runaway capitalism...," indeed. Ain't understatement grand? | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 3197 Registered: 8-2003 |
No doubt you were a big fan of Hunter S. Thompson. "Gonzo" or "New Journalism" is what they called his work. Others less rapt called it lying. Robber baronism is happening on a "large scale" now, and understatement is grand. Hunter couldn't have said it any better. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 524 Registered: 3-2004 |
I wonder what you would call it--- business as usual? Not in my lexicon, and not in my list of clients. And I don't believe you grasped my point, but that's life. | ||
| Dave -agent of MOL Moderator Username: Dave Post Number: 5401 Registered: 4-1998  |
This site is moderated under a Hunter S. Thompson license to shoot first and ask unrelated questions later. | ||
| Steve R Jones Citizen Username: Sjthinker Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 |
Sounds like it's almost over http://www.postgazette.com/pg/05058/463080.stm | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 3198 Registered: 8-2003 |
I'm not saying it's business as usual, as "usual" implies a majority operate in an illegal or unethical way. That would be overstatement. I'm saying history shows that as a capitalist system evolves -- the same system your advisor is making nice gains for you at a fee to yourself that you won't disclose -- these things happen as it becomes more fair, more lawful and more transparent. Are there setbacks and horrendous examples along the way? Sure, but not enough for me -- and obviously you -- to cast it aside entirely. There is a point here somewhere, Innis. Speak plainly and let's all share in it. By the way, Egypt announced today that Mrubarek will face opposition in the next election. There are those who in the face of this bit of historic movement towards democracy that will say it's not enough. It's more than was there before Bush got into office and Saddam was toppled. The Berlin Wall in the Middle East continues to fall. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 534 Registered: 3-2004 |
CJC: Why in god's name would I disclose that fee to you? No more than I would disclose my portfolio size or composition. What a naive, foolish thought. And why do you seem so fixated on that? My point was that to my mind, our own free market system is not as evolved as we should hope, that there are sufficient ethical lapses, transgressions, and outright criminal activity to give me cause for concern. And it would seem that even though many citizens share that concern, I am afraid that many representatives of the current US administration are not in the least bothered. As to your final paragraph, we will see what walls continue to fall, what events are merely appearances and not permanent moves toward change. As someone used to say, "one swallow does not make a spring." |
