| Author | Message | ||
     twig Citizen Username: Twig Post Number: 146 Registered: 5-2001 |
Perhaps others may disagree but, to me, over the years it seems that the Education section of MOL has contained some of the most virulent "back and forths" on the entire Board. Threads on the reading wars, gangs at CHS, the asssault policy, budget, and so many other topics have regressed into rather viscious ad hominems and bare knuckles (or bare keyboard) brawls. Of course, more than a few of those threads were initiated by a "message bomb" tossed into the MOL crowd so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at the reaction. So, why does the education section evoke such passion and inspire such wrath? Is it simply because the schools are where the lives of so many posters tend to intersect? Or, could it be because it's a proxy for issues related to our attitudes about race, SES, and/or festerings related to the side of town on which one lives and property taxes? I do not profess to have any answers but suppose that my suspicions tend to drift toward the latter conjecture. But if the strong feelings presented on this board reflect those of BOE members or others who work in/with the education system, I can see how decision-making must be a strenuous process. | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 806 Registered: 6-2002 |
I know I'm going to regret saying this, but imho it comes down to a few individuals with unbendable positions and perhaps personal dislike for each other. Tom Reingold said something on the Politics board that really got me thinking - "I didn't expect to have my mind changed in this one, but I do like to have it opened, which is why I engage in debate. The result is that my viewpoint changes (or sometimes just shifts slightly in direction) or it affirms my beliefs and teaches me to express them better. " I think there is less of this attitude on the Education board than there could be. Which is one reason why I generally lurk here rather than post. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 3445 Registered: 5-2001  |
it evokes passion because of two things...money and our children. | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 1891 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think you're absolutely right on this, ffof. Cathy | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5847 Registered: 1-2003  |
Also, the our own individual control is just beyond our reach (most of ours) so it might be frustrating. Fantasizing what we would do if we were president of the US is easier, because we know it's an unrealistic fantasy. But the school district is much closer. | ||
| juju's petals Citizen Username: Jujus_petals Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2003 |
When house hunting in Maplewood I stumbled onto this board and found it invaluable. The education section, however, at first really freaked us out. It is rare for a community to air is educational disagreements so openly. Then upon further reflection we decided that the often contentious debate about schools actually said something very positive about Maplewood / South Orange as a community and school system. We decided we wanted to be in a town where schools mattered enough to its citizens and parents enough to raise their passions. Parental and community involvement makes huge difference in educational quality. Naturally, we all won't agree on what's best. Hopefully, we're willing to stand up for it and roll up our sleeves to create it. Or, at least discuss . . . . | ||
| Iwant2 KeepMyJob Supporter Username: Fastfusion Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004  |
I have seen many other school districts and have to honestly say that South Orange and Maplewood Schools offer so much more and are equiped so much better than most other school systems. YOU have made a good choice. | ||
| Reflective Citizen Username: Reflective Post Number: 823 Registered: 3-2003 |
money - a lot of money! and Children - all the children in our school district should have the best educational resources. twig- your suspected conjecture is wrong. The continuing educational debate is about spending money to get the best possible results, it's about accountability of highly paid administrators, about accountability of elected Board members, about improving communications, about the best teaching methods, about secretive policy decisions forbidding religious music and many others. You had a great postulation, but immediately reduced it with your second conjecture. Disappointing.... | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 818 Registered: 6-2002 |
All of this is true - money, wanting the best for our kids, etc. People definitely care about this stuff. But somehow, reasoned debate seems very difficult here. That's the part that I can't understand. For a long time like twig I thought people were talking in "code words" about race, SES, or something, simply because I couldn't understand (still don't) why people get so steamed. I don't think so any more (at least most of the time - it is definitely there some of the time but isn't a huge force). But there is something really weird about this board. It has a far more aggressive dynamic than any other part of MOL. People do care about education in these parts, which is good and healthy, so maybe it isn't such a bad thing. You can cast it as people are passionate. But when people get downright nasty to each other to the point that they have recently I have to wonder what else is going on - this goes beyond passion about educational policy. I still say that some of this is just good old fashioned personal dislike. I also think that people sometimes feel the need to "score points" and this takes priority over reasoned debate. The "gotcha - you're a hypocrite!" mentality. This makes people angry and doesn't further the discussion. I think the recent hoo-ha was like this. The meta-discussion was a lot more heated than the discussion itself. | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 2156 Registered: 3-2002 |
children...money...and ego. some folks are just convinced they are right and wont listen to anyone or anything else. They even refuse to give credit where it is due or admit being wrong when they may be. And its easy to do that online, maybe even exacerbated when you arent putting yourself out there on the line by standing behind your name, in some cases. Education is a hotly emotional topic in any circle, in most any town..I think unfortunately, online, when some, not all, "anonymous" posters can make unaccountable comments and attacks, it heightens the tensions and lowers the discourse. If you write a letter to the N-R, you have to include your name. If you speak before the BOE, you have to introduce yourself. Here, you can just say what the hell you want. Fortunately, in most cases, people are responsible, but lets agree..not in all cases. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7916 Registered: 5-2001 |
Money, money and more money, with some educational philosophy thrown in. In addition to the (obvious) tax burden I think there is a very strong debate going on as to where the money should go. Should we increase AP courses and gifted programs or put the limited funds into remedial programs? Should we put our money into administration or into the classroom? In addition, there are two very strong factions in the reading wars. Those who favor the whole language approach and those who favor a phoenitic based program. A lot of the unpleasentness comes down to bickering on this subject. | ||
| twig Citizen Username: Twig Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2001 |
Reflective - Yes, my suspicions may be incorrect for some posters...but they may be accurate for others. What I do know to be "true" is that each person has his/her own reasons for posting and that I cannot unequivocably assume what is or isn't the motivation for all posters. What I meant to suggest in my post was that we all have a set of social values and, for some reason, many of us seem to react strongly when we read a conflicting perspective. And many of us also seem to have an ardent need to impose, or otherwise get others to embrace, our values...and the education thread seems to provide an opportune forum for doing so. If I did not articulate that point sufficiently, I apologize. Interestingly enough, however, my sense of the tenor of your response seems to illustrate the very point I was trying to make - that threads on this topic tend rather quickly to escalate to personal attacks. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent or am being overly sensitive but I perceived your response message as one in which you essentially presented your opinion as being an absolute fact, declared my suspicions to be absolutely wrong, and then went on to demean the integrity of my opinion concluding with a subtle derogatory in the form of the provocative but unqualified hanging-chad/word "disappointing". I am not trying to ignite a flame war in writing this and fully appreciate that my sense may not accurately reflect (no pun intended) your intent...but could you help me to better understand your intent? Thank you. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 325 Registered: 7-2003 |
twig, you have touched the proverbial nerve where most would say; "you don't want to go there". The Education section is one that I noticed to have the most inflammable, sensitive and biased opinions. When surfing this site before moving here, this definitely made me question my decision to choose Maplewood. After further investigation and research, I realized that if you're looking for an environment that requires you and your child to be active and involved in the school system and its activities, than this is the place for you. If you're the type that's laid back and allows things to happen with no response but to "go with the flow", then I would consider another place to live. I've noticed MSO is full of vibrant, intelligent and aspiring people. This can be a competitive environment and stressful for some. It can also be motivating, inspiring and a great catapult for others. IMO, if you don't like to roll your sleeves up and get knee-deep into what you're doing, MSO is not for you. If you do and enjoy getting involved in town issues/problems and are socially active, a trend setter and consider yourself, someone who can make a difference..., welcome! | ||
| mjh Citizen Username: Mjh Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2001 |
Twig, That was a very thoughtful response. You resisted the urge for a quick and angry response...good start! No keep it up for weeks on end, even when you're having a bad day! There are some clear educational "camps" in town, and they are at each other's proverbial throats on MOL pretty regularly. I try to read the threads where I might actually learn something, and ignore threads when the arguments are shouting matches with tremendous personal animosity showing clearly. There are some addictive qualities about participating on MOL, but the shouting matches between "usual suspects" that occur too often in Politics and Education get out of hand and seem to lose all perspective. If I find myself getting drawn in too far, I eat Girl Scout Thin Mint cookies and refuse to allow myself to visit MOL.......... Lucky for me, I'm really thin. Good luck to you.} | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5862 Registered: 1-2003 |
This thread has some great points. I'm so glad to be here. I moved here from Edison, NJ in June 2003. I moved to Edison in 1987. My kids were born in 1988 and 1992, and they went to the schools there. I had no big complaints about the schools, but I do about the town's attitude towards taxes. There was a tax issue on the ballot, for construction, and it was voted down, largely by the old people. Some buildings have no cafeterias, and the old people didn't see the need, because when their kids were in school, they ate lunch at home. Harrumph. That's not how things are these days. I concur that the attitude is much more pro-education in SO/M. | ||
| Reflective Citizen Username: Reflective Post Number: 826 Registered: 3-2003 |
Twig in my opinion you are overly sensitive and perhaps read too much into posts. I gave my thoughts about why there is a continuing educational debate. Because educational issues are so varied and affect our children, their future and our community, many post their opinions and challenge others. This board is not for the faint of heart. | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1892 Registered: 2-2001 |
Cathy, I'm wrtiting fast because I'm running off to work. . . I don't think personal dislike has much to do with the nastiness in the Ed threads. A bunch of the people I argue ferociously with used to be my friends or acquaintances. I get PL's and emails from people I argue with saying they wish we could have coffee. It's really sad in many ways because the Ed threads are one of the few the place where people who are interested in talking about education can meet and discuss these issues in detail. Do you think my real friends and family want to hear about the difference between analytic and synthetic phonics? Do you think I talk about the achievement gap at work? The real issue here is politics and power. Think about the last election where two phonics advocates where elected by people who don't even want scripted reading programs because they believed they were the going to control the tax situation on the West side of town. This made no sense to me than or now but that's what happened. I also find it weird that people will say they won't vote for someone if they find out they are endorsed by a specific BOE candidate when you know from having discussions with them that deep down they agree with that BOE candidate. So that creates a big disconnect in the Ed thread where you have a bunch of people with specific objectives in mind that don't include actually reading and responding to what people have actually said on line or even bothering to see if they agree with it or not. So, the goals are different. Hence the herds of roaming trolls. Recently I was having what I thought was a nice, quiet discussion with Tulip about phonemic awareness. I was not really talking about how this applies to our schools and we were using technical terms way over the heads of many people. I'm sure for most it was a complete snoozer, but anyway I was working out some ideas and I thought we were not bothering anyone. But, if you remember this thread was unable to continue because trolls swooped down and just started interrupting everything and demanding that I write only 5 line posts (a limit they did not put on those they perceived they agreed with) and other distractions. So the whole thing fell apart finally and I left in disgust. This does not happen in every thread and this is not, thankfully, everyone who writes in the Ed threads but it's a big part of the invective and it makes it impossible for us all to get along. And that's why you get so much strong emotion and the discord and broken relationships. | ||
| mjh Citizen Username: Mjh Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nan, I'm really not in disagreement with you......You have more patience, passion, or whatever it takes to stick with it despite the difficulties than many of us cannot tolerate. I'm glad you find that you can still get in some genuine discussion.......when it works, that's great and you should stick with it when it works for you. When it's deteriorates to a shouting match among the usual suspects, I find that it's better for me to ignore it and move on. Yes, I could get tougher, but I don't personally find it worthwhile in this instance... | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2106 Registered: 3-2004 |
nan: I'd be glad to meet with you privately and discuss phonemic awareness.(Not being facetious!) Problem is distance from my house to yours, and our busy schedules. We can private line our discussion, if you like. For now, I'm at work, and a bit nervous about posting..as I've got a lot of work to do, and I'm sure you do too. For the record, and from the laboratory, (the elementary classroom) itself, we need a combination of whole language and phonics approaches, sensitive to the needs of each of our students. | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 1900 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tulip, I think your last sentence is exactly what many of us have been trying to say for years here on this board. I like how you added the final clause "sensitive to the needs of each of our students" because some kids do need more of one approach versus another. They should be able to get it as needed, without labeling. I'm not sure how we figure out who needs what but perhaps you, as an ed specialist, have some ideas about that. I'm guessing you're an LC? Is there an easy way for teachers to figure out in kindergarten/first grade who needs more of what? Cathy |
